Channel: #plone

Date/Time: 2004/08/31 11:00:00 GMT-5

Moderators: Joel Burton (joelburton), Paul Everitt (zopepaul)

Conversation with #plone-fdn

(09:22:08) joelburton: hello, eager audience ;)
(09:22:36) oferw: joelburton:hi
(09:22:44) whit537: heh
(09:22:48) ***whit537 chomps at bit
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(10:24:33) bskahan: hey all
(10:35:52) joelburton: andym--since you've got the channel ops, can you set the topic here to "A moderated discussion on the Plone Foundation. Feel free to ask questions about the foundation, our status, where we're going, and how you can help."
(10:36:02) joelburton: or something equally cheesy? ;)
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(10:59:23) joelburton: hi, all.
(10:59:32) whit537: hi joelburton
(10:59:35) joelburton: let's give zopepaul a minute or two to show up and we'll get started.
(10:59:47) joelburton: talk among yourselves until then ;)
(10:59:59) zopepaul_ [~zopepaul@ARennes-351-1-7-187.w82-126.abo.wanadoo.fr] entered the room.
(11:00:47) joelburton: ok, then. hi, zopepaul_.
(11:01:03) zopepaul_: howdy joelburton, great to see you! :)
(11:01:13) huron [~rbadin@mail.sopinspace.com] entered the room.
(11:01:19) zopepaul_: it's been, what, minutes since our last chat? :)
(11:01:26) whit537: heh
(11:01:29) Tiran: hi paul
(11:01:30) joelburton: most of you were in on the earlier open doors sessions we had for the foundation a while ago. i thought since we hadn't done so in a while, it made sense to get people together to share any new questions and news about the foundation.
(11:01:50) zopepaul_: Tiran: hi
(11:01:59) joelburton: first, we'll go over some of the news. feel free to ask questions. then, we'll throw open the floor to any general questions.
(11:02:02) joelburton: sound good?
(11:02:17) whit537: huzzah!
(11:02:18) joelburton: silence=assent. good.
(11:02:20) speeves: ")
(11:02:32) jhauser [~jhauser@pD9E3DDD6.dip.t-dialin.net] entered the room.
(11:02:58) joelburton: ok, so, the foundation has had an initial board of directors since it started (http://plone.org/foundation/). this is just the *initial* board, mind you.
(11:03:16) joelburton: so coming soon will be board elections, where members of the foundation will be able to elect new board members.
(11:03:32) joelburton: and we'll be having our first membership meeting at the plone conference.
(11:03:42) joelburton: zopepaul_: do you want to outline the discussion and status on membership?
(11:03:45) ccrownhart [~ccrownhar@thinairnetworks86.customer.frii.net] entered the room.
(11:04:17) zopepaul_: yup
(11:04:48) zopepaul_: foremost, we need to get the definition of "merit" wrapped up and get the forms in place
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(11:05:35) zopepaul_: we have to solve some chicken-and-egg problems
(11:05:45) joelburton: essentially, the board has voted on the idea of merit, in a fairly general sense.
(11:05:51) zopepaul_: the first batch of members will likely be geared a smaller population
(11:06:12) zopepaul_: from that we start expanding, within the criteria (which have some subjectivity)
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(11:06:23) zopepaul_: </over>
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(11:07:28) zopepaul_: joelburton: i think one remaining question is whether companies are members, or only individuals
(11:07:28) joelburton: generally, the first criteria will be checked-in code to plone-the-product.
(11:07:30) tesdal [~tesdal@sparkit.easynet.no] entered the room.
(11:07:38) zopepaul_: (the latter is like ASF and perhaps others)
(11:07:55) joelburton: we expect to broaden that criteria to include active-community-members, etc.
(11:08:02) gkirk [~gkirk@24.76.68.246] entered the room.
(11:08:07) joelburton: we do plan on having membership by the vienna conference.
(11:08:22) joelburton: and we have a form for people to fill out about their membership almost done.
(11:08:30) whit537: cool
(11:08:42) joelburton: the current plan is that it will go out to contributors to plone-the-product, once one or two small questions are answered.
(11:09:14) whit537: what are the questions?
(11:09:16) joelburton: i have some questions about merit, but we'll come to those later.
(11:09:17) ***whit537 curious
(11:09:21) whit537: k
(11:09:26) joelburton: the main one is companies-v-indivs, whit537.
(11:09:31) joelburton: ok, the board.
(11:09:35) joelburton: we look our current board.
(11:09:39) joelburton: but they gotta go :)
(11:09:48) joelburton: since they're just the initial formation board.
(11:10:00) joelburton: at this point, we're expecting to have board elections at the vienna conference.
(11:10:19) joelburton: foundation members will be able to vote.
(11:10:34) joelburton: and you don't have to be a foundation member to serve on the board
(11:10:49) joelburton: we're not yet sure whether the board elections will be in person or electronically.
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(11:11:29) limi [~limi@159.80-202-72.nextgentel.com] entered the room.
(11:11:45) joelburton: http://plone.org/foundation/meeting2004/ has some initial details on the general meeting of the foundatoin.
(11:11:57) joelburton: bookmark this page for details, which will also be sent to the usual places ,too.
(11:12:16) joelburton: current board members can, of course, run for the board, as can anyone.
(11:12:31) joelburton: and we'll have details soon, i hope, on how one can do so.
(11:12:49) joelburton: questions about the board? or board elections?
(11:13:29) joelburton: ok. zopepaul_: anything you want to add about this?
(11:13:30) Tiran: joelburton: Plone-the-Product = CMFPlone + QI + FormController + Archetypes?
(11:13:42) joelburton: good question, tiran. i'm not sure.
(11:14:00) zettai [~zettai@200.124.162.149] entered the room.
(11:14:01) zopepaul_: Tiran: PtP is code named for the end-user releases
(11:14:02) joelburton: i'd think that was reasonable myself, but that details hasn't been brought up in a board meeting so far.
(11:14:15) zopepaul_: they come from software in the plone project, but perhaps other software
(11:14:24) joelburton: since we package all that up in the tarball release, i'd think so.
(11:14:50) joelburton: again, the board has expressed the general idea that, in the future, the membership definition will probably get broader than just code contributors.
(11:15:06) zopepaul_: right
(11:15:12) joelburton: obvious additions: docs writers, active #plone helpers, general community helpers, etc.
(11:15:23) joelburton: ok.
(11:15:43) Tiran: sponsors for core developers?
(11:15:48) zopepaul_: merit is broadly defined as: "long-lasting contribution to the general community"
(11:16:05) joelburton: the board has established several committees: trademark-protection, ip rights, membership, and, most recently, marketing.
(11:16:10) zopepaul_: Tiran: that's going to be an interesting question :)
(11:16:34) joelburton: limi is chair of the trademark committee. their goal is to establish "plone" as a trademark in many places and protect it's use.
(11:16:39) Tiran: zopepaul_: I know how to find edge cases :) That's one of my favorite hobbies
(11:16:47) lurker: Tiran: initially I would not expect the Fdn to hand out money :)
(11:17:02) joelburton: alan is the chair of the ip committee. their goal is to make recommendations to the board about the contrib agreement/ip status of plone.
(11:17:26) joelburton: mark murphy is the chair of the membership committee. their goal is to define membership and establish the procedures for voting, etc.
(11:17:38) joelburton: i am the chair of the marketing committee. our goal is to, errr, market plone. ;)
(11:17:53) joelburton: (did i forget any committees, zopepaul_?)
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(11:18:16) zopepaul: nope
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(11:19:20) Tiran: lurker: My case was: Are sponsors for coders a kind of members, too?
(11:19:43) joelburton: that's related,i think, tiran, to the questions about companies being members, and isn't yet decided.
(11:19:59) Tiran: joelburton: true
(11:20:06) joelburton: the foundation has received an offer of marketing assistance from porter novelli, a large marketing and messaging firm.
(11:20:27) lurker: (will it be possible to "buy" your way into the fdn)
(11:20:28) zopepaul: Tiran: the ASF specifically discusses this and says no
(11:20:34) oferw [~ofer@DSL217-132-174-183.bb.netvision.net.il] entered the room.
(11:20:40) joelburton: this offer is for pro-bono marketing work, so we'll be able to produce some materials for plone developers and people who have to sell plone
(11:20:53) joelburton: as well as help understand and establish our area in the cms-sphere.
(11:21:43) whit537: nice
(11:21:54) limi: it rocks ;)
(11:21:56) whit537: so does that mean the foundation will get into product definition?
(11:22:14) zopepaul: whit537: if so, by indirect means
(11:22:18) whit537: yeha, three cheers for porter novelli
(11:22:20) joelburton: hopefully, we should see some output from this over the next few months, but we'll need help from the community here.
(11:22:21) whit537: ok
(11:22:25) limi: that will probably be left too a committe or the likes
(11:22:32) zopepaul: most of us *don't* want the PF to take over what the community does
(11:22:49) joelburton: right. this isn't meant to box plone in anywhere.
(11:22:49) limi: PF is complementary, not replacing ;)
(11:22:55) joelburton: just help push us further out.
(11:22:59) zopepaul: i don't think the PF needs to get too involved in development, we can barely handle admin :)
(11:23:08) speeves: lol
(11:23:10) joelburton: get more press releases, better sound bites, etc.
(11:23:24) zopepaul: but, if the PF funded a release manager, that would be a Good Thing
(11:23:27) whit537: seems like marketing and product definition are closely related though
(11:23:34) joelburton: limi: anything you want to say about the trademark cmte?
(11:23:57) joelburton: yes, whit537. i think one thing the marketing committee & pn can help us with is understanding the 2 or 3 areas that we most excel in.
(11:24:02) joelburton: so we have some hooks for pitching ourselves.
(11:24:06) limi: any questions from people here, first? I've posted a draft of the initial guidelines to the trademark list
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(11:25:04) joelburton: guess not ;)
(11:25:13) whit537: hmmm ... what about "looking from the outside in"?
(11:25:13) Mortini: i just have a commnet :)
(11:25:17) Mortini: comment.
(11:25:28) whit537: i.e., not just highlighting our best efforts
(11:25:34) whit537: but market research kind of stuff
(11:25:35) joelburton: essentially, the goal was to allow for some non-commercial use of "plone" name while making sure that it can't be taken commercially away from plone-the-product or weakened.
(11:25:39) whit537: finding out what people want
(11:25:46) limi: the current approach is:
(11:25:47) joelburton: a good point, whit537.
(11:26:10) Mortini: which, is basically about needing to be a code contributor to be on the board.
(11:27:24) joelburton: no, mortini. anyone can serve on the board. you don't even have to be a member of the foundation.
(11:27:32) joelburton: that's what the bylaws say.
(11:27:56) whit537: PF could help us focus the product on meeting market needs, in other words
(11:27:57) joelburton: (go ahead, limi)
(11:28:07) whit537: so the developers/community knows what to build
(11:28:10) ***whit537 shuts up
(11:28:14) limi: (on phone)
(11:28:17) limi: sorry :(
(11:28:24) joelburton: "do you mean plone?"
(11:28:28) joelburton: ;)
(11:28:31) whit537: heh
(11:28:34) joelburton: ok, so i'll talk for limi.
(11:28:39) limi: (thanks :)
(11:28:56) joelburton: he wrote to the mailing list with proposals for how we should protect the name plone.
(11:29:03) zopepaul: whit537: most open source projects seem to avoid product management
(11:29:20) ***zopepaul meant that with sarcasm
(11:29:21) whit537: zopepaul: and is that the way we want to go?
(11:29:23) whit537: heh
(11:29:25) whit537: good :)
(11:29:32) joelburton: community-oriented websites, user groups, etc. would have the right to use the name plone (ie, plonehelp.org or the Plone Users of Kalamazoo)
(11:29:41) zopepaul: i'm a big believer in having a crisp story that fits people's brains
(11:29:55) zopepaul: but trying to use that to herd cats is a challenge
(11:30:03) zopepaul: joelburton: sorry, continue
(11:30:04) whit537: most open source projects are also developer-centric
(11:30:06) joelburton: but commercial use would require approval from foundation. we need to do it this way since it shows that we're "protecting" our trademark, otherwise we could lose it.
(11:30:39) Maikovich: why lose it?
(11:30:39) joelburton: no one is exempt from this (ie, even limi's company would have to apply for this right), and it would be granted by a vote.
(11:30:54) joelburton: that's roughly the proposal that the committee put forth.
(11:30:58) zopepaul: joelburton: one important point, if you fit in the fair use policy, you don't have to get a trademark agreement
(11:31:10) joelburton: right.
(11:31:23) joelburton: questions about: marketing or trademark stuff?
(11:31:32) Maikovich: Why would you lose the trademark if you don't protect it?
(11:31:40) zopepaul: Maikovich: in trademark law, a company has to show they are "defending" the mark
(11:31:48) zopepaul: yeh, it's a weird concept :)
(11:31:50) Maikovich: ok
(11:31:58) Maikovich: any reference?
(11:32:02) joelburton: right, if we let everyone use it, we can lose it.
(11:32:04) zopepaul: but, the idea is that a mark can return to the commons if it goes unused
(11:32:14) limi: Maikovich: common trademark stuff, google it :)
(11:32:15) joelburton: if we vote, and let most people get it, or charge a small amount, then we're protecting it.
(11:32:17) Maikovich: ok
(11:32:33) acacia [~acacia@acacia.engin.umich.edu] entered the room.
(11:32:51) joelburton: alan is chair of the ip committee, but i don't believe they've made any recommendations to board yet on contrib agreements, ip, etc.
(11:32:57) speeves: where is the trademark to be registered?
(11:33:13) limi: worldwide
(11:33:16) joelburton: we have asked the fsf to join the conversation on licensing, so eben moglen of the fsf has been invited to help w/alan's committee.
(11:33:21) zopepaul: speeves: lots and lots of places
(11:33:22) limi: it's already in process
(11:33:30) joelburton: us and several european countries at first, then going out as far as we can afford, speeves ;)
(11:33:42) zopepaul: the Republic of Speeves
(11:33:54) speeves: are local user groups going to help in x countries?
(11:33:56) speeves: lol
(11:34:00) joelburton: and a big public thanks to the many companies that loaned some money to the foundation to help get the trademark stuff in process.
(11:34:05) speeves: thats all I need is a country to run
(11:34:07) speeves: :))
(11:34:43) joelburton: that's all the news i can think of. limi, zopepaul_: anything i've missed?
(11:34:48) joelburton: oh, about transparency.
(11:34:52) joelburton: an important issue, i think.
(11:35:00) joelburton: the board meeting minutes are intended to become public.
(11:35:03) zopepaul: We Are All Transparent!
(11:35:10) joelburton: but this hasn't happened yet for piddly reasons.
(11:35:23) joelburton: but geoff davis, the fdn secretary, is working on that issue.
(11:35:30) joelburton: i hope that we'll have those up soon on plone.org.
(11:35:56) ***limi is off the phone again
(11:35:59) zopepaul: me too, we should split the work on that joel
(11:36:00) limi: sorry about that
(11:36:08) joelburton: never let it happen again, limi.
(11:36:10) limi: my upcoming vacation, couldn't lose that ,)
(11:36:36) joelburton: are there any general questions?
(11:36:45) ***joelburton throws the floor wide open.
(11:36:51) oferw: what about the price of plone?
(11:37:00) zopepaul: 50% off
(11:37:03) joelburton: i'll sell you a copy for $10,000 oferw.
(11:37:05) joelburton: limited time offer.
(11:37:10) joelburton: ;)
(11:37:18) ***limi grins
(11:37:20) joelburton: there are no plans to change anything about plone's licensing at the moment.
(11:37:25) zettai: what was the final decision from the board on the amendments proposed by the membership committe ?
(11:37:31) joelburton: and no plans at the moment for the fdn to start selling "packaged" plone, etc.
(11:37:40) joelburton: i believe they were accepted, zettai.
(11:37:49) zettai: excellent, thanks
(11:37:53) whit537: is it appropriate to ask more about PF's role in project/product mgmt.?
(11:38:07) joelburton: oh, for those committees w/open archives, you can read them at lists.plone.org. that includes trademark and membership, i believe.
(11:38:18) joelburton: ga, whit537. do you have a specific question?
(11:38:20) zopepaul: zettai: we still need to tackle company-vs.-individual
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(11:38:31) speeves: is the foundation going to help with a push for documentation?
(11:38:38) zopepaul: speeves: nope
(11:38:47) zopepaul: (imo, that is)
(11:38:56) joelburton: not in the current scope, speeves.
(11:39:02) zopepaul: there isn't anything the PF can do that can't be done in the community on docs
(11:39:21) speeves: i would think documentation would help with marketing...
(11:39:34) whit537: and product definition ;)
(11:39:35) speeves: that has been the hardest sell on plone for me :(
(11:39:37) joelburton: it would.
(11:39:39) whit537: ok, here's a specific:
(11:39:47) joelburton: documentation is an area we need more community help, of course.
(11:39:55) joelburton: limi and i would love to get help on docs stuff!
(11:40:05) whit537: would the PF buy a site license for Tony Byrne's CMS Report?
(11:40:14) joelburton: but the marketing committees focus isn't to write docs, but to advise the board/membership on how we could successfully market plone.
(11:40:18) speeves: yes, a focused effort would be great :)
(11:40:52) whit537: joelburton: marketing should be at least as much finding out what people want as telling people what we have
(11:40:59) joelburton: exactly.
(11:41:29) whit537: so would it be within PF scope to buy http://www.cmswatch.com/TheCMSReport/?
(11:41:36) zopepaul: whit537: but why can't that happen in plone-pr?
(11:41:36) joelburton: re: cmsreport, i have no clue. it's never come up.
(11:41:56) zopepaul: whit537: i think we'd need some kind of assurance that it would be effective
(11:42:06) limi: sounds like protection money to me ;)
(11:42:11) zopepaul: i have an 2003 edition of that report and it is really useful
(11:42:17) limi: "buy this CMS report, or else" ;)
(11:42:24) zopepaul: *but* who is going to translate that into action and tell developers what to do?
(11:42:30) joelburton: gathering some data on plone's competitors is part of the marketing effort, whit537. i don't know about this exact report.
(11:42:43) limi: "niiice little CMS you've got here - too bad if something should... happen to it"
(11:42:49) joelburton: hehe
(11:42:49) whit537: haha
(11:42:53) ***whit537 just being specific
(11:42:58) ***joelburton hands limi $20 in protection money.
(11:43:04) whit537: zopepaul: your question is mine
(11:43:16) whit537: "who is going to translate that into action and tell developers what to do?"
(11:43:25) ***limi nominates whit537
(11:43:31) whit537: this is software development methodology
(11:43:35) ***whit537 accepts nomination
(11:43:39) joelburton: i don't think anyone is going to *tell* anyone what to do. developers are pretty good at not listening anyway ;)
(11:43:46) speeves: lol
(11:43:52) zopepaul: bingo :)
(11:43:52) whit537: true
(11:43:56) joelburton: but some clarification of where the market is and we're not, etc., is helpful.
(11:44:08) limi: very
(11:44:12) whit537: but developers are also not good at producing top-quality end-user software either
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(11:44:22) joelburton: i'd love to get some plone-vs-our-competition charts. even if it's just for "our" use (not a client handout), it would be great to know exactly how we stack up against some of the competitors.
(11:44:24) whit537: on their own, that is
(11:44:42) whit537: not only great, absolutely vital!
(11:44:57) joelburton: right. the fdn is trying to be helpful and high-level, but not directly get into steering the development of plone-the-software.
(11:44:59) Mortini: joelburton: Yeah. cmsmatrix.org has some outdated information about plone.
(11:45:00) speeves: http://www.cmsmatrix.org/
(11:45:10) joelburton: yes, it does, mortini. someone needs to fix that.
(11:45:13) speeves: we have been using this site to do some comparison shopping
(11:45:14) joelburton: and things like that.
(11:45:23) limi: maintaining all the 3928674 independent CMS listings is a pain
(11:45:25) whit537: k, so development methodology discussion should be kept out of foundation?
(11:45:33) Mortini: limi: you missed one or two :)
(11:45:39) limi: you would think they could come up with an RDF ontolody to do that ;)
(11:45:40) joelburton: 3928675 now limi.
(11:45:48) limi: ontology
(11:45:50) joelburton: hehe
(11:46:03) limi: using WebDAV
(11:46:06) ***limi ducks
(11:46:35) joelburton: what do people think about the merit/membership stuff?
(11:46:56) joelburton: this isn't all yet decided in the specifics.
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(11:48:21) joelburton: i appreciate all the questoins re: marketing. i expect i'll send out an invite to the membership committee pretty soon.
(11:48:37) joelburton: so if you've had questions, i'll expect you to help out ;)
(11:48:50) hazmat [~hazmat@c-24-15-10-12.client.comcast.net] entered the room.
(11:49:51) joelburton: ok, then.
(11:49:57) joelburton: looks like there are no other questions.
(11:50:04) joelburton: so, moving forward:
(11:50:19) joelburton: * we expect to get membership apps out soon, probably initially for code contributors
(11:50:27) joelburton: * there will be the annual membership meeting in vienna
(11:50:44) joelburton: * there will be elections for the board. anyone can be elected to the board.
(11:51:01) goli [~goli@219.95.36.95] entered the room.
(11:51:03) joelburton: * the marketing commitee is just forming and could use your help! look for details soon.
(11:51:18) Tiran: joelburton: anyone or just a member?
(11:51:21) joelburton: * the trademark committee will have information in the nearish future about the success of the trademark apps.
(11:51:24) limi: Uncle Joel needs YOU!
(11:51:26) joelburton: anyone, tiran. anyone at all.
(11:51:44) limi: but only members can vote
(11:51:52) joelburton: right.
(11:52:19) joelburton: and, obviously, board candidacy will be determined primarily by arm wrestling and good looks.
(11:52:33) limi: and if that fails - Core Wars
(11:52:38) joelburton: hehe
(11:52:50) joelburton: we could always do the nail-driving-competition from the snow sprint, too ;)
(11:52:56) limi: hehe
(11:53:01) joelburton: ok, then.
(11:53:07) limi: Phil would be the only one on the board
(11:53:11) limi: :]
(11:53:20) hazmat: heh, i had a one shot drive in ;-)
(11:53:23) joelburton: thanks, everyone for coming. thanks to my lovely co-moderator, zopepaul.
(11:53:50) joelburton: and look forward to seeing everyone in vienna (if not in #plone two minutes from now ;) )
(11:53:57) whit537: thank you guys